i had a little uproar in the comments the other day when a reader wrote in to say that my traveling vine swatch for the next “little nothings” scarf looked a lot like fleegle’s current shawl project, the lovely hanabi.
another reader chimed in with an even more disgruntled comment, including a link to fleegle’s blog, which i had not had the good fortune to know about previously.
(an aside) now, when a person leaves a comment with one or more links in it, that comment will be held in my akismet spam filter until i approve it. i check the filter once a day. so if a comment does not show up immediately after posting, it is NOT because i’ve deleted it (i never do that unless it’s spam), but because it is being held for moderation.
this second person’s comment was less than gracious, implying that i took the idea for my scarf from fleegle with complete knowledge of my actions and the intention to steal.
since that comment included a link, it was held in the spam filter. when it did not appear for all to see, the person then proceeded to leave more comments which became increasingly accusatory, and well, nasty; they even threatened to post their accusations on ravelry.
at this point, i had still not had a chance to view the comments and respond to them (sorry! i was out teaching til after 9pm!), or to contact fleegle to talk about the issue.
when finally i got home that night and had a chance to sort out the sequence of comments, i answered each one in the order it arrived (as i do with almost all comments), and then i contacted fleegle to see what she thought, and to offer to rework my scarf project if she found it conflicted with her own design.
she had also gotten some email concerning my “theft” of her design, and had come over to check out my project. she was totally gracious about the whole thing, and completely set my mind at ease. the two projects are not similar, and we think we are not even using the same stitches (it’s a little hard to tell, but i got mine out of a book and she made hers up, so we think not).
we decided to chalk the issue up to—at most—coincidence, which is much more common than you’d think among designers of all kinds. seriously, go take a look at laura’s blog; she’s working on a new stole using the same stitch i am, and she’s completely chuffed that we’re both doing something different with it.
in fact, designers have a special name for a coincidence such as this—it’s called a trend.
there are so many things to say about a situation like this, from several different perspectives.
first of all, using a public forum such as comments or ravelry, as the first channel of communication in any matter, poses a number of problems—especially if that communication includes accusation and/or threats.
by accusing someone publicly of wrongdoing, before checking the facts or assessing both sides of a story, the accuser risks committing slander, which is a serious offense. they also risk being publicly put in the wrong, and having their own credibility damaged.
in addition, this channel of communication is fraught with inefficiency and misinterpretation. in the case above, for instance, the comment was not seen for many hours and therefore could not be addressed in a timely way, thus creating more animosity on the part of the accuser. and if it had occurred on ravelry, it may never have been seen or addressed at all by someone who could do something to ameliorate the problem, and the parties involved would have little chance of containing the spread of misinformation and damage.
it would have been much more efficient to send an email of inquiry to both parties (fleegle and me) to understand the facts and obtain information about our intentions and reactions to the issue. using language of inquiry, rather than accusation, would facilitate either a quick compromise or other settlement, and no one would walk away as the bad guy.
to that end, i have an email button in my sidebar that anyone is free to use, and i think it is well known that i am diligent about addressing all email that comes in from my site.
secondly, it is extremely disturbing to me lately to see the speed at which people become irate and even belligerent toward one another, and the ease with which inflammatory remarks are flung about among our community in forums, mailing lists, and in comments. there is an incredible lack of restraint and respect shown toward bloggers, designers, publishers, retailers, and individual knitters. the language used is often horrifying—and i don’t mean just swear words—in its vehemence, pitch, and tone.
and my question when i see it is: what does this behavior get you??
it’s quick and easy to participate in reputation-bashing through a live forum, where one may not necessarily have to wait around for a rebuttal, or suffer the indignity of a return volley. it’s one way to vent, but does it allow people to separate the issue at hand from the force of other frustrations and bitternesses in their lives? and does venting in this way solve the problem?
i have seen it said that jess and casey need to figure out a way to severely limit inflammatory posting on revelry, but what about users? are we capable of acquitting ourselves with success when it comes to complex knitting instructions and techniques, but not able to manage a civil discourse the forums? do we really need or want that kind of policing?
and thirdly, there is the whole subject of originality that is brought into question by this incident.
no designer worth their salt has anything to gain by stealing ideas from another, and in fact, doing so can greatly hurt one’s reputation. designers prefer to be known for original interpretations of what they see around them.
while many designers are inspired by each other’s work, and are working with a similar tool set (in the case of knit designers, this could be stitch patterns, techniques, or garment shapes), most designers still seek to create a fresh, unique body of work that sets them apart from the crowd.
this approach arms one with the best chances of an artistically satisfying and financially viable outcome, which in turn, enables one to continue working and producing.
that said, the tool set available to designers within a given discipline has limits, is not protected by copyright, is shared, and is constantly shifting and changing. no designer, for instance, can claim ownership of a stitch motif; these elemental pieces of our tool set are not protected by copyright. therefore, they are available for all of us to use at any time.
if seven of us choose to use the feather and fan stitch in a scarf on the same day, and to publish the pattern for it, we are allowed.
how we would approach the problem of differentiating ourselves from each other becomes the design question then (or not; it’s up to us). our individual solutions to using the stitch in a fresh way, and the unique written instructions for doing so, are what constitute our intellectual property, and are therefore covered by copyright law. the fact that all of us used the same stitch is not.
of course, from a business standpoint, one may choose to walk away from the possibility of a coincidence turning into a glut of the market for that item. or from the risk of having the public compare designs. or from the threat of copying.
in our case, fleegle, laura, and i have given each other a high-five and agreed that we are intrigued by each other’s work, and looking forward to our various outcomes.
and i am quite sure they will be different, and wholly unique to each of us.
thanks for reading this entry. i know it was long and lacking the usual color of cheerful photos. but i think it is timely, and i hope you found it of interest.
i’ll be back later with lots of scarf photos, a couple of new patterns, and the usual hilarity of my own stumbling “process” in design.
thank you.
149 thoughts on “fleegle and i are good: a long reflection”
It is indeed amazing that people are so quick to accuse. Indeed, why not just ask in an email and *wait* for an answer instead of assuming that everyone has blackberries or palmpilots and have nothing better to do than read and process answers immediately. And where have courtesy and politeness gone? Hum…. there are a lot of very angry people out there. I hope they don’t start poking with their knitting needles.
Well said. I’ve have my share of bad experiences online, and I’ve learned to avoid forums. Fortunately, I have not had to deal with such things on my blog, though I know it happens.
When I’ve posted bad reviews of things, it’s based on my own experience, and I try to explain why using simple facts as much as possible.
There was a pattern I followed once that had a fundamental flaw in regards to row counts. I contacted the author, and she was adamant that stockinette and garter have the same row counts – in reality, they have the same stitch counts but not the same row counts. The experience left me with kind of a bitter taste in my mouth when it comes to pointing out errors in a designers work, even when trying to do it privately so in order to help the designer “save face.”
Recently I knit a beautiful pattern only to have it fail due to the yarn, which was the yarn suggested in the pattern. I did post bad reviews on the yarn and the pattern without contacting the designer, publisher or the yarn company. I consider the project a learning experience for myself and will probably re-knit the yarn. I hate for someone else to have the same disappointment with the project or yarn that I did. I explained exactly what factors in the project/yarn combination that I believe made it such a disaster. I am sure it might have been handled differently, but I am not sure how.
This piece was well said and provided some great food for thought. Thank you for having the courage to say what you said.
Yikes! I’m so sorry that all that happened to you. I read Fleegles blog and quite honestly never noticed the similarities. I think what you guys are doing is unique in your own way.
You do realize that this means you’ve hit the big time — fame and popularity brings harsh “critics”.
I missed the kerfluffle, but wanted to say how sorry I am that you had to go through it. I’m saddened to see Ravelry being used as a threat against designers, sellers, and retailers, when communication and giving people the benefit of the doubt will yield good results 90% of the time. I’ve been glad to see people stepping in on Ravelry and defending others who’ve been accused unfairly.
People who lash out in that way don’t seem to realize that reputations, livelihoods, and good will are all put at risk in a medium where rumors and accuasations can take on a life of their own.
I’m glad to hear that you and the others involved have all been able to rise above it.
A little rain just makes everything greener in the end.
I miss hanging out! Jamie is officially a bike rider so i’ll be getting mine tuned up. We’ll have to plan a ride sometime soon.
You are truly a class act. very well done!
Preach it!!
Anne:
My first response was to splutter, “But! But! Anne is so NICE!”
As I read, it increasingly occurred to me that it would’ve been very easy for you to handle this privately with Fleegle and your accuser, and we would never have known about it.
I’m sure that this was not easy for you to write. But I’m so glad that you did. We often DO forget how easy it is to get out of control, and how unreasonably fast reactions (and expectations of reaction) can be online. Thank you for your thoughtfulness. Thank you for the reminder that there is almost always another side to a story. Thank you for doing the hard job. And thank you for being an AWESOME lady.
A classy response, as others have said. I have to count myself among those who don’t see a striking resemblance between the two patterns; even so, as you say, the stitch pattern is not what’s protected by copyright.
I’ve been meaning to comment for oh-so-long. Yours is definitely among my very favorite blogs, for both the writing and the patterns. If not for the knowledge that I would never have the time to make them, I would be buying practially all of your patterns! Thanks for all your lovely work.
I am sorry that this has happened to you and I agree with everyone before me about your classy approach to dealing with the situation.
Anne, you know in what high esteem I hold you, and it is exactly because you are the kind of person who handles a situation like this with this kind of grace and dignity. I’m sorry that you got flamed like this, and I appreciate your sharing your experience with us in such a thoughtful way. Maybe it will help all of us to remember that what we write in a moment of pique lasts a lot longer than our anger, and can do a lot of damage. I read all of the comments above, and love how positive and supportive they all are (but I must admit I was hoping for a graceful apology from the detractors!). Hang in there, girl, and don’t let the turkeys get you down!
Bravo, to you for putting it forth so succinctly and reasonably, and to you, fleegle and laura for continuing to enjoy the process.
Excellent post. Every time I run across one of these situations I feel like I must have slipped into the Twilight Zone. People really behave this way? Amazing.
I’m so sorry you had to go through this too… and what everybody else said about how well you handled it and your designs, etc.
What I’m worried about is the quick decent into mediocrity I see happening on the Ravelry forums. I’m in a couple of small groups, don’t participate in the forums and value the databases enormously.
I just don’t understand why people would choose aggressiveness over civility. There’s a professor at Johns Hopkins U. who is studying civility. his name is Dr. P.M. Forni and it seems he’s hit a sensitive spot in the current climate of public discourse.
hang in there and stay above the fray.
Anne – it’s good to see that you’re not going to bow down to that sort of treatment. What you have done, you naughty person, is make me want to knit both your scarf, and Fleegle’s shawl! Similarities will exist – of course they will when there’s a limited number of stitches out there, but did everyone who ever used the cats paw steal it from the original? Or who put a two stitch/yarnover top edge on a shawl? Is my current jumper a rip off? There are people out there, like you, and Fleegle who are creative, and this should not be stifled by someone who can only attempt to destroy. Thank you for introducing me to Fleegle, and for giving such an example between you of grace under fire.
You probably didn’t realize when you were writing this that you’d be spending the rest of the day responding to comments, did you? LOL Glad you got it out there, gf. It’s *amazing* how many people have come to visit my blog this morning. Hit counts are through the roof! LOL 😀 Hugs.
I am sorry that this happened to you. Your
reputation does not warrant those kind of accusations although I imagine that a mistake can
be made occasionally. Now that you got it
straigtened out, will you still put your patterns
on your website for sale? You had answered my
question before which was very nice of you. I
cannot buy until the 15th-long story, but I would
still like to have the pattern. Good luck
with your designing. You know the old saying
“you can please some of the people, some of the
time, but you can’t please all the people all of
the time”, or something like that. I’m glad you
checked it out for yourself.
or something like that.
HEY ANNE – all this nonsense was due to happen sooner or later with the number of designs put out lately but is terrible it had to be you hit with this ‘SHIT’, – you handled it well – anyone who knows you personally or has any sense of who you are through reading your blog knows what an ethical person you are – its too bad some angry people just can’t resist being jealous of others talent – anger is so destructive , and will burn them out – unfortunately stuff spreads fast with modern communication , and some people don’t take the time to suss out the source
understand and feel for you
yours in knitting —pat j
Forgive me for commenting without reading the preceding 66 comments, but I would like to compliment you on your well-thought-out, well-reasoned post.
Something that positively incenses me, is any knitting designer who thinks that she/he “owns” a particular stitch pattern or traditional knitting motif, simply because the designer has incorporated the pattern or motif into an original garment design that is protected under the current liberal copyright law. Knitting has been around for so long, there is virtually nothing new under the sun.
The best designers, the ones like yourself who are able to combine traditional stitch patterns into fresh, original designs, or who are able to employ traditional motifs/patterns in unexpected ways, generally understand that the building blocks of knitting are in the public domain, and thus belong to everyone. They also understand that two designers may come up with the same idea quite independently of each other. Even copyright law recognizes that ideas are not copyrightable, and that there is no violation of copyright unless there is “copying”. (There is, of course, at least one famous designer who doesn’t understand the “building blocks” principle.)
Both knitting bloggers and knitting blog commentators really need to understand this principle. There is no need to level charges of copying or plagiarism at any designer, simply because two designs share common elements, or appear at first (or even second) glance to be similar.
Well said. One of the reasons I enjoy your blog is that you share your design process, which I find fascinating. Anyone who has followed your blog would know that the accusations thrown at you were not based on fact. The point you made about trends is a very good one. Another reason I follow your blog is because you are obviously a person of quality. You handled the venomous accusations with dignity and grace. Like others have said, a class act. Sadly, there is an increasing number of knitting blogs that are being attacked in this manner and put in the position of having to write such posts reminding adults(?) to be civil.
Author! Thank you so much for saying this so well – after watching the mob mentality unfold on Ravelry the past few days, I was depressed to see how easily some people can become unpleasant when they’re anonymous. Anyone who has any knowledge of your work would also know of your integrity.
I’m sorry you had to deal with such uncalled for vehemence, kudos to you for being so professional, calm, and poignant in your response, as always.
and of course (((hugs)))
Keep up your fabulous work and DON’T let accusers try to keep you from doing that fabulous work. You have always!! written so insightfully – you give so much to your readers – THANKS!!
Anne- You should see some of the nasty comments I’ve received- always anonymously.
There’s nothing “new” under the sun. Just different interpretations- and you are the last person I would accuse of design theft. I work with traditional patterns and tweak them.
There are venting forums on Ravelry- but I would not waste my time or energy- there’s clearly alot of anger and bad feelings in cyber space- but I see no place for it in knitting.
We support you to the full-
In philosophy I believe the term is “synchronicity” when an “awareness” pops into consciousness in a variety of places that previously had no connection. It occurs in many things, not just design.
I am sorry you got treated so disrespectfully, Anne. My Mom always warned me that what goes around comes around and that what I give will return in full-measure. Be sure to publish their posts. Sounds like they need a little guidance.
It’s too bad you had to bear the brunt of someone’s kick at the wall. (my phrase for taking out one’s anger and frustration)
I am sorry that you had to ‘handle’ this issue at all.
And just like your designs, it was done with beauty and grace.
What in the world is wrong with people?? I’ve been saying this a lot lately. Everyone is out of control in this world. Breathe, people!
Well said.
If this were Ravelry, I’d click the ‘love’ button.
Wow! I enjoy your blog because you share SO much of your design process, which is fascinating to me. Its actually laughable that someone would accuse you of “stealing” a design.
Another well said from me!
I think someone who has so much time to make so many comments should find something more constructive to do with their lives. Really is it that life threatening that you don’t even give a designer a chance to respond to your comments. I don’t know I guess you just have to pick your battles and choose to fight for things that really make a difference.
Good for you! I didn’t read all those comments from that post – but good for you for standing up for yourself and designers!
Some people need to just chill out! Really! An email would have taken how long to write?
oh well, let’s just all move on!
Huh, I missed the whole thing, but I am sorry it happened. Your post is so very well said, and you have enriched the online knitting world by handling this event so gracefully,
I feel a little bit badly for Ravelry; if you spend enough (too much perhaps!) time online you will see this kind of thing happening in any large set of forums–and they are getting big. I think, if your forums have enough members, it’s really hard to prevent flaming/uproars without investing a lot of time and getting pretty heavy-handed with moderation. It’s a pretty fine line to walk, and I’m not sure it can even be done. So you are right–it behooves us all to behave better online, and think twice about what we say/do–as opposed to expecting the moderators to do it for us. We can’t, of course, control others’ behavior, just how we respond to it. As you have done here so beautifully!
What a terrific post! It’s funny, I just completed a survey about Ravelry and said that I spend much less time on the boards than I did initially because I don’t need reasons to like the world-at-large any less. I’m so glad to read these comments and to see that I’m not alone.
Anne, I have no idea about what was written, I think I’m glad I missed it, but I’m sorry you had to experience whatever happened. You are an inspiration to me as well as to many, many knitters out there, I’m sure. You have a most wonderful blog that I love to read daily, and your pictures of your adventures, whether it be knitting (to swoon for),food (yum, I wish we could sample it on line), flowers (I wish they were in my garden,I’m jealous), or a whimsey (like lace in the snow, wow), I just love the “positiveness” of it all – and this makes me want to read, take pictures, make scrumptious food, grow a garden (jealous again) and of course, knit MORE!!! Negativity is a waste of time and can be put in the trash. I go with the positive and Just keep to your beautiful blog writing, photos, and knitting… you are one elegant lady 🙂 God bless you 🙂
Thanks for your well spoken,intelligent commentary on this issue. I think its so sad that people behave in this manner. Whatever happened to talking with someone about a problem? Instead, we jump to public condemnation. Not a nice way to be.
Thanks for writing this. I haven’t experienced anything but positive on my blog (as yet) but you’ve modelled a very adult and calm response to what must have made you want to tear your hair out at the time.
I hope that if ever a troll ventures into my comments that I’m able to rise above it as you have.
This is just how the textile fashion industry is, despite how long it has existed, there are only so many ways to combine things, someone somewhere will eventually repeat the combination. but the combination isn’t the important part design that’s just the first step. It’s the style and the interpretation of that combination that makes that dress, shawl, sweater YOURS. Dior doesn’t own the silhouette of the “new look” he is just the best know for that look. Channel doesn’t own the perfectly tailored women’s suit. No one person owns “a look” but they do own the specific garment that evokes that look but made with their unique execution of that garment. That’s fashion, that knitting… there are only so many stitch patterns and way to many knitters…
WAY TO GO, ANNE!
Anne, I have been reading your blog for a few months now and truly enjoy learning how you process your designs. After reading today’s post, I want to also applaud your eloquence. Thank you.
Judging from the number and tone of the comments, I would say the world is on your side. No one benefits from jumping to conclusions or being anything less than civil when there appears to be a conflict of some sort. The world would need far fewer lawyers (of whom I am one) if everyone could address things as you have. Kudos.
Any one threatens or even snarks at my favourite designer and all around good Ann (without the ‘e) I shall immediately put at her disposal my cabana boys. All tall warrior lacrosse playing Mohawks who would be more than happy to come to her aid. My family is entirely at her beck and call.
And as an added bonus – they are all really hot when dressed in buckskin.
There’s far too much anger lately. Perhaps some people should pick up their knitting needles more, drink tea and get a real life.
So sorry that something negative like this happened but like everyone else has said you handled it with grace. Very much in awe of you.
Just wanted to send you some more positive vibes. Your blog is one of my favorites 🙂 and the little nothings are so much fun.
I forgot to say that anyone who knows your work knows that originality and creativity are not problems for you!
I am surprised that you would link your personal issue, which I am so pleased to see resolved [and agree was the result of an innappropriate comment left on your blog], with what is going on in the ravelry forums.
That came about because private e-mails and letters were not being responded to and issues were unresolved. Issues that have repeatedly occured for well over a year. Sometimes it is good that are this big, unpleasant and longterm are brought to a public forum, if only as a public service.
It ia amazing the effect this whole affair has had on the knitting community. for all the wrong reasons.
I do confess myself surprised by the knee jerk defence of the person at the heart of the ravelry debates by other designers and retailers, as if somehow a cticism of one is a criticism of all. That is far from the case.
When the dust settles, and maybe more of the truth comes out, we can all learn something from this.
Being “polite” in the face of bad buisness practices is not such a good thing, in my opinion.
All that being said, I would like to say how much I respect you as a designer and really love your designs. I have no reason, at all, to doubt your integrity.
I am chiming in a bit late, apparently. Your designs are unique and elegant ( have several!). So flarb on them, I say. On the bright side, we finally met each other, so the entire episode had a positive result 🙂
Anne, you have completely encapsulated the thoughts I couldn’t pin down on why it’s been so distasteful to see various discussions on Ravelry lately. I completely understand the desire to share bad experiences, or to seek redress, or to help others avoid bad experiences, but those threads seem to so quickly turn into threads with a downright nasty vibe.
The speed of internet-communication is a blessing and a curse. I don’t know what the answer is to the Ravelry discussions, but I think it can’t hurt for people (in general) to “think twice, post once”. What you say on the internet most certainly can and does affect people in ways that are sometimes difficult to understand completely when you push that “submit” button.
Thanks for writing this.
Hang in there. There is a lot of negativity out there lately, and you navigate it with ease and CLASS. Bravo.
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